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t3knomanser's Fustian Deposits

RE: The TSA

How Random Babbling Becomes Corporate Policy

run the fuck away

Mad science gone horribly, horribly wrong(or right).

RE: The TSA

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Terrorist
In a conversation regarding the TSA over on FARK:
Fluffy_the_cactus: And, flying is not a right. Neither is driving.

And yet, the ability to move freely in your home country is. Or should we put roving security checkpoints on public streets? If I told you it'd make us safer, would you agree? Or would you state that "Walking on the street" isn't a right either?

Funny you bring up driving. Funny, because, in order for the Government to revoke your right to drive, they have to follow due process. You have the ability to contest it in court. You have the ability to read the relevant case law, and hire a lawyer, and force the police officer to take the stand as a witness.

But for the Government to forbid you from boarding a plane- none of those things have to happen. The Government can keep you from flying without telling you why. Without giving you any legal recourse for recovering the ability to fly. The entire TSA experience happens in a legal vacuum that doesn't have any accountability, and requires an amazing amount of trust and faith in your Government.

Pardon me for saying so, but anyone who trusts a Government- any Government, is an idiot.
  • "Government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem." Actually, I would say it depends on the definition of trust. I trust government to do what's best for its members.

    And as to driving: in one of the later "Dune" books travel on planets is limited to walking and human-drawn carts since a walking population is far easier to control. Cars are only for military and official cargo transportation. So maybe you're just seeing the first step...
  • Well, to follow that logic, to fly a plane is something that needs to be licensed, and to take that away, one would have to follow due process. To fly on a plane carries the same rights/freedoms, what have you, as being a passenger in a car.

    Now having a car, I decide who gets in it and who doesn't (my passengers). I certainly don't want anyone who has any drugs or weapons being a passenger in MY car. Especially if I think the are going to use those weapons on me, and steal my car.

    Is it a right to move freely about your country? No, not really. It's certainly not a constitutionally protected right. "Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" "right to bear arms" "freedom of speech, religion, etc..." and on and on, but nowhere that I know of does it say "All Americans have the right to move about the country freely!"

    And there ARE limits to "Walking on the street" - though generally not too many. But you can't just barge onto a city street when there is a parade going on. And you can't just walk around the street with a beer in your hand, and you most certainly cannot walk on the street and decide to take a breather outside a girl's apartment with binoculars and a folding chair.

    If you need the ability to get from point A to point B - and you cannot fly, and you cannot drive, and you cannot take a bus or a train, ride a bike or walk. If you need to be in California for a 3 pm meeting tomorrow, and you can't fly, well, walk REALLY fast. Or Yog.

    So, really, I have to agree with Fluffy the Cactus. Flying is not, nor ever will be, a right. It is a privilege. A privilege equal to the privilege of being a passenger in my car. A privilege equal to a police officer cutting you some slack when you dash across the street during a gap in the parade.

    The problem is that we THINK these things are all rights, because we are so accustomed to them.

    Now, like I said earlier - I have a car. It is my solution to flying, if I don't waqnt to deal with the hassle of security guidelines at airports. But years of practice, and regularly scheduled car insurance payments, bi-annual registrations, and annual inspections all allow me to keep my car on the road. If it was my RIGHT to have a car, I wouldn't have to have a license in the first place.
    • Oh, yeah - and if I don't want you to get in my car - I don't need to offer you a reason.
    • You own your car, the Government does not own the plane. It's not just my rights as a traveller that concerns me, but those of the airlines as well.

      I would argue, as many have, that the right to move without restrictions in your own country is a critical right. I recall the anti-Communist propoganda from my youth (mostly before my youth) pointing out the evils of "Papers, please".
      • True. I do own my car. But the government does put restrictions on my ownership as well. Now, I don't want to argue cell phone usage or seat belt laws (personally, I am against seat belt laws), however, they also say if you are transporting drugs or weapons (unlicensed, illegal, etc) then they can impound your car and you lose it. That goes for my passengers, as well. I abide by this voluntarily, and do not fight it.

        I also stand by my ground that you don't have an explicit right to travel. Perhaps it could be amended to the constitution? Another debate elsewhere. Let's go on the assumption that it IS a right: The right to move freely about the country, amendment 28? If the method of travel is not specified, then flying is not a right. Use of public transportation is not a right. I revert back to the California example. If you want to get to California, it might take 3 months to walk, but it CAN be done. Heck, the Donner's did it... Oh, waitasecond.

        There are alternate methods of travel - car, motorcycle, bike, foot power, train, bus, etc. None of these are free. Voting, a right, is free. Speaking my mind, a right, is free, in the most basic form. (True, you can get into the semantics of paying for internet usage, permits for demonstations, etc... but for me to stand on the street and tell someone my point of view is free. Religion is free - until the church itself asks me for money (Dianetics???).

        No method of travel is free, save for walking, and possibly biking. I have to pay for the privelege of that method of travel. The comfier, the faster the travel method, the more I pay. Capitalism at work. And at a certain point, capitalism truly works. Privately chartered business jets are MUCH more expensive than regular commercial, but none of the security hassles. Solution: Money.
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